The Potential Impact of the 2024 Presidential Election on GovCons

Joe Young

This is our October edition. It's a beautiful fall day here in the nation's capital. We welcome everybody who's taken some time to join us today. My name is Joe Young. I'm the President of GovConPay. We are the only outsourced payroll and HR solutions provider focused exclusively only on servicing the government contracting marketplace.

As always, we are coming to you live from the wonderful studios here at BLC Digital Strategies in Northern Virginia, and under the direction of our wonderful producer, Mr. Todd Castleberry.

Before we get started today on our main topic, as always, I do want to recognize and thank our sponsor: Berkshire Associates. For those of you who are not aware Berkshire are HR compliance experts with over 50 years of experience with a focus in affirmative action, pay equity, and DEI. We welcome any Berkshire clients who are also joining us today and we appreciate their support and they are obviously very aligned with our goal of bringing you great HR compliance information here on the Round-Up.

And as always, I'm here with my fearless partners, the partners of Berenzweig and Leonard Law Firm here in northern Virginia, Mr. Seth Berenzweig, Mr. Declan Leonard. Why don't you guys do your quick some introductions for us?

Declan Leonard

Seth, your name is on the door first, so you go first.

Joe Young

I thought it was just alphabetical.

Declan Leonard

No, it's because the website was available for Berenzweig and not for Leonard.

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah, I was shocked to see that, by the way. Hi, I'm Seth Berenzweig, I'm co-managing partner of the firm and I help lead our corporate and transactional practice.

Declan Leonard

I'm Declan Leonard. I am also co-managing partner here Berenzweig Leonard, and I head up our firm's employment law practice. You'll notice I'm the one wearing a tie today. But I will say, because of our topic today, the upcoming election, it's got some blue and some red. So, it could be a nonpartisan tie, a nonpartisan discussion.

We're here to inform govcon HR leaders about this great topic.

Seth Berenzweig

You're not going to be burdened by colors of the past.

Joe Young

We’re staying down the middle of the road today. And this, as you alluded to, this is our “thank God election season is almost over” podcast.

Declan Leonard

So you think!

Joe Young

We’re 19 days away.

Seth Berenzweig

From the first lawsuit.

Declan Leonard

We’ll be talking about this in our next one.

Joe Young

Yeah. This topic may go into November of “where we are now,” but we did want to be timely, and obviously, the election is right around the corner. I think everybody out there – and I know what I'm seeing in our business, you probably are, too – There's so much uncertainty. I think a lot of people are sitting around waiting for things to happen.

Things do seem to be a little slower these days, but let's try and get ahead of it a little bit. Nobody knows what's going to happen in 19 days, but there are things that we can look at and say, “Hey, depending on what things go, there could be some impacts.” And we're always trying to make information and allow people to be proactive and think ahead and get ahead of some of those things.

So, with that, is the lead in, Declan. As we look at that landscape, what are some of the top things that we're we need to be prepared for from an HR practitioner's perspective?

Declan Leonard

As we were preparing for this, it was amazing. We kept going back to prior Round-Ups that we have done. So, for those of you who have been loyal listeners, whether live or by replay, you'll remember we talked about some incredibly important HR developments that impacted government contractors throughout the year. We did a whole topic on the joint employer rule, which is in the context of government contractors, whether or not, if you're a subcontractor, are your employees, also employees of the prime and vice versa? Does the prime have to worry about like, “oh my gosh, am I going to get hit with a discrimination claim because this sub-contractors employee is on my site and is being harassed,” or something like that? So, we talked about it. It ultimately was struck down.

But under a Harris administration, you may see this become resuscitated in some way, shape, or form. So, it's not over yet. I don't think a Trump administration would take that back up. In fact, they've always advocated for a very loose joint employer rule such that it's very hard to tag another company as an employer. A couple other things, and then we're going to jump into the meat a little bit more: paid FMLA leave.

That is been a topic probably for two decades now. A lot of states have taken the lead. And what we're talking about here is whether sick leave, maternity leave, paternity leave, things of that nature. So, you got the Federal Family and Medical Leave Act, but that's not paid. That just guarantees your benefits and, in many instances, your job back.

States have now come in and said, “hey, we're going to give you various types of paid leave.” This is actually one that's probably got a little bit more bipartisan support because, during the Trump administration, I do remember that there were some attempts to put paid leave in under the FMLA. And it is definitely a priority from a Democratic administration.

The third one, we actually did another round up on this issue, which is the salary threshold. Most of your employees, under the Fair Labor Standards Act, are probably going to be deemed exempt. But the problem is that the salary threshold in order to continue to be exempt, keeps going up.

It goes up again on January 1st, 2025, up to $58,600. So, they constantly have to adapt to that salary threshold.

Joe Young

Yeah and we just had a question that came in right before, specifically about this. We appreciate somebody reaching out. So, the question came in is:

“Does the panel have any suggestions on how government contractors should handle the increase in pay for employees and how to engage the government contracting offices on making them whole by reimbursing the contractors when employers are paid to increased thresholds?”

Declan Leonard

Yeah, it's a great question. In fact, we devoted a whole Round-Up to this issue, but because now we're seeing it in practice, and it could go up and up and up over the next couple of years. It really is going to impact a lot of government contractors. There's a couple of things you can do.

You can increase somebody's pay up to the salary threshold. You're not going to be able to tag the government with that. That's not like a situation under a Service Contract Act contract where an hourly employee, if you've got a collective bargaining agreement, you can get the government to often adopt that CBA with the higher pay. You're not going to be able to do that.

But there's a couple of things you can do. You can keep them at the current rate of pay and just convert them to hourly. All you really have to worry about is controlling somebody's hours. Most government contracts, you're supposed to be working 40 hours a week. If you stay at 40 hours a week, all of this is just an academic exercise because overtime never comes into play unless you're over 40 hours.

So, I think it's really an economic choice. Do you go hourly and curb any overtime, or do you try to bring them up to the new salary threshold? You're going to have to eat that cost, though, unfortunately, as a government contractor.

Joe Young

Thank you for that question that came in. It was great. I think that's the first time we got a question before we went on the air.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Young

We’re happy to oblige and bring that value.

Declan Leonard

Very good questions.

Seth Berenzweig

Wonderful.

Joe Young

Switching gears. Well, not really switching gears, but another topic that we also addressed recently in a full Round-Up podcast earlier was around FTC and a ban on non-competes and the kind of impact we see there potentially.

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah. So, the FTC right now is hot, and Lina Khan, the chair of the FTC, has really been in the news a lot lately. She's been making the circuits talking about a number of issues. I think that there are two lenses that are going to be relevant to business, particularly in our region, but throughout the country as it relates to the FTC.

The first is the so-called “ban” – and let's just quote that “ban” – on non-competes. It really kind of came out on his deathbed, if you will, because shortly after it came out where the FTC said it would literally eliminate roughly 99% of non-competes, it went through some litigation, particularly in a federal court in Texas. That has been overturned as exceeding the FTC's authority.

The current administration is considering whether or not they're going to appeal that determination. It is going to, of course, be dependent upon the election. That's kind of a big deal when it comes to non-competes.

The other area of FTC where Lina Khan’s been very active relates to antitrust. There are a number of companies that are potentially holding off on their merger strategies in the M&A space to wait and see who wins the election because Lina Khan’s made it unmistakably clear that she's ready to play a game of Whack-a-Mole with large companies under a severe antitrust lens to determine not only whether they could now pose an anti-competitive issue, but she's tasked her staff to go and do investigations to determine on future trends. So, that'll be something that's going to be a big pivot depending upon who wins the election.

Declan Leonard

The reason why that M&A angle is so important for government contractors is what we've seen in the last five or ten years, and maybe I'm even overplaying that. It could have been just in the last couple of years. Private equity has traditionally overlooked the govcon market.

Perhaps it was COVID, and seeing how stable and lucrative government contracting can be, but private equity is very hot in the government contracting space, and private equity could buy multiple companies. That's where you start to look at unfair competition. When you start to roll up a couple of companies that are in, let's say, the defense space or the AI space, you know, that's where the FTC could come in and say, no, no, no, this is creating too much of a compressed marketplace.

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah, it's so interesting how what is uncompetitive or anti-competitive activity is really in the eye of the beholder. So, we'll see what lens applies shortly, or maybe not so shortly, after Election Day.

Declan Leonard

But ironically, in the Trump administration, they did also take aim at high tech and some of this stuff. So, I don't think that this is partisan issue. I think sometimes it goes to the whims of who's at the top.

Seth Berenzweig

Depends what industry you’re talking about.

Declan Leonard

Exactly. But high tech was a was a bit of a target under the Trump administration, too. So, I think it's something to look out for.

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah, I agree.

Joe Young

Yeah. Well, we can't have hardly any conversations in the business world today without talking about the aforementioned AI.

Declan Leonard

Yes, yes.

Joe Young

So that's also a topic that raises its head even in today's conversation.

Declan Leonard

Yeah. And I think we'll continue to see AI play out in the workplace. I think a Harris administration, an EEOC, and a Department of Labor would continue to look at this from a lens of “how is AI in any way exacerbating or creating bias in the hiring process” and things of that nature. But I think also beyond that for government contractors out there, I think it also presents a lot of opportunities for them from a business standpoint.

During the Trump years, he had an executive order and we're going to talk a little bit about these executive orders because they're sort of like waving a magic wand that will happen very quickly in January when whenever whoever is sworn in. He had an executive order entitled America AI Initiative, and that directed federal agencies to shift their funding to AI projects.

So, I think we're talking about it today. We're talking to HR leaders. HR leaders should always, always have a table at the highest echelons of the company, and they should not just be talking about workplace relations and workplace issues. They should be talking about business development issues. And that's an angle where you've got to know where funding is going to be going under which administration.

And I think AI under a Trump administration probably would create a lot of opportunities for contractors.

Joe Young

Regardless of who wins, I think in the election in a couple of weeks, the topic any administration will be dealing with going forward is government spending, our deficits, and conversations around efficiencies.

I think they're the most fun conversation around that recently has been the talks of former President Trump’s potentially having Elon Musk to come in and be an efficiency czar.

Declan Leonard

Get too close up of that.

Seth Berenzweig

I haven't seen you do that since you were at the bar last week.

Declan Leonard

That's right. I walk into American Prime. Oh, that's funny.

Joe Young

So, you know…

Declan Leonard

Todd, we can edit this out, right? I'm sure we can.

Joe Young

Hey, if somebody came in and actually looked at our federal government operations through the lens that maybe Mr. Musk has looked at some of his operations, what potential outcomes could that bring to us?

Seth Berenzweig

Well, if Musk arrives to the scene on his new cyber cab, he may not make it.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, but in any event.

Seth Berenzweig

But seriously.

Joe Young

But he could land a rocket thing down. So, hey, you know.

Declan Leonard

He seems to be dead on on that one.

Seth Berenzweig

He’s a pretty smart guy. So, President Trump says that he's going to appoint Elon Musk to an efficiency commission to be able to analyze being able to chop waste out of the federal bureaucracy. And if you don't believe that Musk has the ability to do it, you can ask the former 80% of the employee workforce of Twitter and they'll tell you otherwise.

Declan Leonard

But don't ask the shareholders because you know… womp womp.

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah, he made certain price shrinkage on that one, too. But anyway, this is really a particularly interesting thing because, on the one hand, if Mr. Trump wins, you will see apparently the appointment of an efficiency commission by our friend Elon Musk.

But Joe, you actually raised something to me before we went on the air, which is a point that I thought was really interesting, because even if you do have this huge slicing of the workforce, which kind of is reminiscent of that old saying, “Honey, who shrunk the agency…”

Now, if the agency is shrinking, that could lead to potential additional outsourcing, which, Joe, you made an excellent point before we went on the air of.

Joe Young

Could that be a net positive? Obviously, it could be the contracting and the outsourcing we see our companies and our clients do every day. They don't have full-time legal departments doing payroll in-house and all the other things like outsourcing. This could be a long-term net positive.

Seth Berenzweig

Absolutely. So, this is going to be another example of a really dynamic area that I think companies in the region want to really keep a very close eye on.

Declan Leonard

And if you're looking at agencies, I mean, Department of Education. For decades everybody always cites that the Department of Education is always on the chopping block. But really, we're going to be looking at a lot of the agencies that our listeners are going to be impacted by and deal with on an ongoing basis.

The National Labor Relations Board, the one that talks about the joint employer rule, the one that talks about outlawing non-competes, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. You know, if they're gutted, if their funding is gutted, if their workforce is gutted, they're not going to be bringing the level of cases that they have brought over the last four years.

Their staff will not be able to investigate charges of discrimination. All of this very much can impact HR.

Seth Berenzweig

Think of it this way. Based upon the Supreme Court's recent decision overturning Chevron, which said that the agencies have to be more specialized, more in-depth and more proactive for them to make analytical and regulatory decisions, that puts more burdens on the agency, not less.

Declan Leonard

It's kind of a perfect storm.

Seth Berenzweig

So, then the government contractors can come in and say, “you have all these responsibilities dumped on you by the Supreme Court and now, you're getting the fat cut.” This could be a really ground-shifting moment for government contractors depending upon what happens in the election.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, because when they cut, do they ever really cut or does it just get shifted? I mean, look at how government contracting has just prospered and proliferated over the last couple of decades. The work doesn't go away necessarily when they make these cuts. It really gets shifted to the private sector. So, there are a lot of opportunities.

Seth Berenzweig

And the optics there for the Trump administration are great because they will be able to say in the first State of the Union, look how much I shrunk the federal bureaucracy. That loss is contractors’ gain.

Joe Young

Yeah, I don't think if President Trump is reelected, they're moving away from that. That's going to be full steam ahead on that topic because they put that out there. So, it's going to be a real priority.

Declan Leonard

Yeah.

Joe Young

Next topic, organized labor unions. Obviously, we’ve seen a resurgence under the Biden administration. Gov cons have been particularly targets for organizing. You know, what do we see as potential ramifications on the union front?

Declan Leonard

Yeah, this is definitely one where there's probably a lot more difference, and there's a lot more light between the two sides. The Harris administration would very likely, if not already been stated, that that would continue the same support and strengthening. In fact, she was put in charge of the White House Task Force on worker organizing and empowerment. And the whole goal of that was to empower unions across the country.

So, a Harris administration is definitely going be very pro-union. It's going to have a very robust National Labor Relations Board. That's the NLRB. I talked about earlier, and that's the organization that deals with unions. I mean, that's the one that oversees union elections. Seth and I have been through these with our government contracting clients. It's really shocking.

The first time we heard from a government contractor client and it wasn't like your traditional union organizing where it might be security guards or maintenance staff or things of that nature. These were high level security IT folks, high tech, and sure enough, the unions came and they’re finding them to be very fertile grounds for union organizing.

And a lot of times it's just because, sometimes the employees… And this gets back to culture and issues that we've talked about in prior Round-Ups – you’ve got to look at your employees as more than just a paycheck and the badging in process. Otherwise, they're going to think you don't care about them, and they're going to look to a third party, AKA a union, to help them get the love that they're otherwise looking for.

So that's just a word to the wise. And I think that that goes, no matter who it is. A Trump administration would try to weaken unions. In fact, he has already, I guess, back in what he had an executive order that tried to reclassify federal workers as political appointees, a lot of them so that it's much easier to replace them when you're a political appointee.

It's not the same Merit Systems Protection Board that a regular government employee has in terms of protections. So, he's not going to… Although, ironically, he has had some support from union leaders. So, it's, you know, true to form in this election. It's just too hard to put your finger on exactly where things are.

Joe Young

It seems like that area is not as, least from the constituency…

Seth Berenzweig

It's clear as mud.

Joe Young

Yes, clear as mud.

One topic that's more kind of into the normal compliance requirements with our government contractors are more than the commercial a lot of that comes around hiring and the things that really impact around OFCCP and affirmative action and those types of things. If Trump wins, is there an end in sight to some of the DEI as we as we currently see that?

Seth Berenzweig

Yeah, I think that there's going to be a significant change depending upon who wins. Under a Harris administration, The priorities and the strategies of the OFCCP and the EEOC will stay relatively consistent and will probably, frankly, expand, including being friendly to what are known as DEI initiatives. Whereas I think under the Trump administration, he would probably focus more on employing veterans rather than a protected class.

So, the DEI cultural push is something that is going to either gain or lose momentum. The other thing that I find interesting from the DEI standpoint is that there is also a litany of regulations related to DEI requirements for certain companies, including, for example, publicly traded companies or broadly traded companies. For example, the NASDAQ regulations, which, of course, the administration can have an influence on, requires that for publicly traded companies with more than five board members, there have to be within the constituency at least two diverse directors to include at least one female and someone who identifies as LGBTQ.

This isn't something that gets talked about a lot, but DEI is something that's become kind of a hot topic in the corporate world. I think it's going to apply to companies regardless of whether or not they're publicly traded. And the mission of the OFCCP and the EEOC is going to be impacted and it's going to have an impact on employment law in and out of non-competes, but also in discrimination cases depending upon the outcome of the election.

Declan Leonard

And I can't think of OFCCP without thinking of our great sponsor, Berkshire. I've actually worked with them on OFCCP audits. Some of you out there, your company may have made it onto the audit list. And you know Berkshire's great at running mathematical equations and really kind of going through the process to show that there is no discrimination going on.

But you know, under a Trump administration, he actually proposed eliminating the OFCCP or moving it under the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. So, sort of collapsing it. And when you do that, inevitably, you dilute its power and its reach.

As Seth said, he's probably going to move away from the… Again, sometimes this is cultural. He's going to move away from the protected classes that perhaps were more of a priority during the current administration.

He's probably going to look to expand… you mentioned veteran status. He would also look to expand faith-based status too, I think. So, they would just have different priorities. I think the OFCCP, in practice, is still going to be just as robust. Berkshire is going to continue to be one of the experts in the field. And, you know, we'll see what happens on this one. 

Joe Young

Kind of trying to wrap things up a little bit here and some of the time we have left. I mean, Declan, you know, for our HR leaders and practitioners out there. As we approach the election, what are a couple of things you would advise them to have on the top of their radar?

Declan Leonard

I think that the government moves very slowly, and of course, the founding fathers sort of set this up that things would be kind of a slower moving thing, but what has happened, and maybe it's not a recent phenomenon, these executive orders. I mean, they come into office and they're not waiting at all for Congress to act at it, which obviously is at a snail's pace, if at all.

But instead, the presidents come in, they sign executive orders, they rescind executive orders from the prior administration. And a lot of these executive orders have to do with federal contractors. So, they've got to watch in January and February to see what is the status, depending on who wins the election, what is the status. But executive orders, I think, are the things that are probably going to have the biggest impact, because remember, as a federal contractor, you sort of sign up.

Unlike the private sector where you do have to pass the law in order to reach one of these private sector companies, federal contractors it's like the string attached is you’re doing work for us, and you're getting our money, you've got to abide by us. That's why all of the sort of touch point issues always start off as an executive order in terms of, “I want you to hire more X, I want you to hire more Y, I want you to pay this.” The federal government's allowed to do that because it's a cost of doing business as a government contractor.

Seth Berenzweig

Those executive orders often provide instructions to the executive agencies and tell them to re-initiate or focus on certain things, which is also kind of the canary in the coal mine to know that other things are changing as well. So, that's a really good point that you raise, is that literally things can change within days because as soon as whoever gets in there starts to pick up the pen, things can change immediately.

Declan Leonard

And then on the opposite end of that, we know that government oftentimes is a bottleneck. We always focus so much on the election of the president. But just as important is where does Congress go? Like, you know, if we get a president from one party and Congress or one or one or two, both houses are controlled by the other party, we're going to get a bottleneck.

We're going to get stalemates. And what's going to happen? It's the same thing that's happened for the last 5 to 7 years, which is the states are going to take up that gap. The states have never been more active in the area of employment law and HR law.

Seth Berenzweig

Look at Virgina. It’s a prime case in point.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, exactly. It used to be before, you know, what was it, 2021. It used to really just have nothing. You'd have to look to the federal law. Now, it's a lot more robust. And so, I think, unfortunately, the watchers out there right now are saying, “oh, my gosh, I got to deal with more state regulations” and “who just passed a leave law, who just passed a pay transparency law.”

I don't see that ending. I think that they can they'll continue to be robust on a state level.

Joe Young

We come in here with a focus, obviously, talking about the federal and presidential election, but our professionals out there every day are concerned with what has changed in each state, managing the 50 states, 50 different laws. It’s those local laws that may be the most impactful in a lot of this, which is the hardest thing to track.

Seth Berenzweig

And what happens in the Congress, too. I mean, the Senate right now is split, so who knows where that's going to go? There's just a lot on the table that's just coming up within the next two weeks.

Declan Leonard

We’re a razor thin, 50/50 country. It's hard to see how something really seismic is going to happen at the federal level just passing these things. That's why executive orders are so potent. They only last usually for that one administration, and it creates a headache for HR because it's like, the joint employer role was in and now it’s out, then it might be in again.

It hopefully causes you to look at this stuff and not necessarily when the government does something immediately jump. I'm not telling you to, you know, not obey the law, but sometimes the law is in such a shifting landscape that it's not conducive to a smooth workplace.

Joe Young

In one of our closing moments, one question came in:

What about resources to try and keep your arms around this shifting landscape? Any particular recommendations?

Declan Leonard

Well, the number one is the GovCon HR Round-Up. You have to join us every month. That was a nice way to tee that up, man.

You have to be in the know. There's so many resources for our leaders. We do a lot of presentations for the local SHRM organizations.

SHRM is the Society for Human Resource Management. Everyone out there knows it. That's a great resource. There are a lot of daily newsletters that come out.

Seth Berenzweig

We have one that comes out periodically that people can just throw us an email and get signed up for as part of the mix.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, we send them out all the time. You know, another shameless plug, but you better sort of, you know, put the law firm on speed dial. Not because there's going to be problems, but just so that you can get clarification. Hopefully, your law firm that you're using, if it's not the great Berenzweig Leonard, hopefully, you are hearing from them because they've got to be relevant in the discussion. You can't wait.

And if you're reaching out to them and saying, “hey, I heard this,” it's probably a little bit too late. You need to do it proactively.

Seth Berenzweig

Keep an eye out there.

Declan Leonard

One last thing: Trump, in his agenda, had a thing called Trump Agenda 47. And this very much impacts government contractors here in the DMV area.

Seth Berenzweig

Oh, this is really interesting.

Declan Leonard

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't realize this. And we were when we were preparing it, we came across it. It was called Trump's Agenda 47, and I think the 47 stands for 47 states. And he basically wanted to move a lot of the agency headquarters out of this area that we're in here – DC, Maryland, Virginia, where everything is just so concentrated.

And it said as many as 100,000 government positions can be moved out of the DMV immediately. So, it never got anywhere in his first administration. But if he is successful in this election, I think he's going to continue to do that. You've seen his tirade against the FBI building and wanting to move that somewhere as far as possible, potentially, you know, punitively, who knows?

But I think that that would be something that he potentially could do.

Seth Berenzweig

I mean, that would be a huge dispersion that could happen very quickly. And, you know, who knows where your actual customer contacts going to be a couple of months from now?

Declan Leonard

Yes. It will only expand the number of states that you're operating in.

Joe Young

I could only see that in the efficiency study as well. As far as yeah, where's more efficient? Where is better cost? All those types of things.

All right, gentlemen.

Declan Leonard

We could have gone an hour today on this.

Joe Young

But we're going to wrap up with some fun over the elections. I want to ask for a prediction, but not a prediction of winner. I want an over-under on date and time of when the official winner will be announced. Any chance we know by 3 a.m. on Election Day or is it Thursday, is it the following Tuesday?

What's your over-under?

Seth Berenzweig

I'll go first. I think it's going to take a minimum of a week. Because I think it's going to be so close in states like Pennsylvania. They don't even begin to start counting absentee ballots until the morning of Election Day. So, I think it's going to be a minimum of one week.

Declan Leonard

I think we'll know by the next… And by the way, I'm the winner of the football pool here at the office two weeks in a row. So, clearly I've got some kind of ability to gauge this stuff. There needs to be food on the line for me to get it accurate.

I would say by the next morning at 9:00, I think they will.

Joe Young

9:00. Okay.

Declan Leonard

Now, it's going to be challenged up the ying yang, but let's just say they'll declare a winner.

Joe Young

Okay. Since I'm going last, I'm going to do the Price is Right. And I want to say by 8 a.m., so any time that night it comes out, I’m a winner.

Declan Leonard

The Showcase Showdown!

Joe Young

I’m going the showcase. I'm going The Price Is Right because it's all about winning. Okay. But unfortunately, I think Seth is probably more accurate.

So, in closing, thanks again for everybody for joining us. We hope you found this helpful. As you can tell, we enjoyed bringing it to you and being together and covering these topics. We hope you will join us again in November.

Currently – I will say “currently” – our topic is preparing for annual reviews in November, which is timely this type of year. But depending on what happens in the next four weeks, those topics could be subject to change. If we felt like we have more interesting topics to discuss based on what happened.

So, stay tuned to see what that topic is.

We are scheduled again for November 21st. We hope you'll join us again then. Have a great fall. Good luck, everybody, getting through the next three weeks and we'll talk to you soon. Take care.